[LISA LEWIS] The Am I Ok? Podcast is part of the Practice of the Practice network, a network of podcasts seeking to help you market and grow your business and yourself. To hear other podcasts like Faith Fringes, the Holistic Counseling Podcast, and Beta Male Revolution, go to the website, www.practiceofthepractice.com/network. Welcome to the Am I Ok? Podcast, where you will discover that being highly sensitive is something to embrace and it’s actually a gift you bring to the world. We will learn together how to take ownership of your high sensitivity, so you can make positive changes in your life, in the lives of others, and it’s totally okay to feel this way. I’m your host, Lisa Lewis. I’m so glad you’re here for the journey. Welcome everyone. This is Lisa Lewis, your host, and we are in the month of February. Yes, February is upon us, and this is the month for love in the United States. We celebrate Valentine’s Day on February 14th, and my guest today is an expert on love and relationships and is going to provide us advice on premarital counseling for highly sensitive persons. I would like to welcome my guest, Rachel Dorneanu. Rachel is a Licensed Professional Counselor. She sees clients as individuals and premarital couples as a psychotherapist. She works with ages 16 and up. Her specialties include anxiety, assertiveness, highly sensitive people, concerns, perfectionism and premarital counseling. Her latest service is sex therapy and she offers online sessions for Georgia residents. She makes therapy convenient and easy to fit into your busy life. Clients that work with her appreciate her humor and straightforward, adaptable approach. They like that she meets them where they are and work on goals together. Welcome to the show, Rachel. [RACHEL DORNEANU] Thank you so much, Lisa. I appreciate it. [LISA] As I was reading your bio, I was like, I can check Mark off probably all the things that you work on as your specialty, except for pre-marital counseling, I don’t work with couples, but I’m so glad to have this topic on the show and to hear about what you’re going to provide us. [RACHEL] Absolutely. I’m excited to be here. [LISA] Yeah. All right, do you consider yourself a highly sensitive person or not? [RACHEL] I do. I am an HSP as we call ourselves, absolutely. [LISA] Can you share a little story about how you discovered that or in your life and how you came to learn about that trait? [RACHEL] Sure, absolutely. I believe I always knew I was sensitive when I was younger, even when I was the mom of the group of, when I was a teen, of always being the listening ear, very empathetic. Then I discovered highly sensitive people, HSP, that term. It was the summer of 2020, so I knew that something was off. Not only was Covid happening, but also I felt like there was something extra off for me. So I was doing a little research and I found the term and I was like, wow, these are my people, which was fantastic to find a population that fits with me. So with being highly sensitive, what’s cool is that there’s maybe 20% in the world that has the trait. There’s nothing wrong with this. It’s not a disorder or a diagnosis, it’s just part of our personality. So a lot of people can be sensitive to different things. Maybe it’s noises, fabrics, a lot of anything that’s sensory, our five senses that are involved, if there’s something that throws us off or we may have trouble with transitions, change, that thing, those are my people. [LISA] Oh, that’s great. Wow, thank you for sharing that. It sounds like you’d be a wonderful person to work with. I would like to focus our time today on premarital counseling, specifically on highly sensitive persons. I’m wondering, just like the type of couple that may even show up, like in your counseling office and maybe how you like market that or, and how, what do you do to make them feel at ease or a sense of like, oh, okay, this is a person that understands something about the trait and so maybe they can help me or help us as a couple, as before we decide to get married or live together or be in a partnership? [RACHEL] Sure, the thing that I do first off is just to offer a free 15-minute consultation call via video for whomever is interested in talking with me. I want to make sure that they know that I’m not a crazy therapist and that we’re a good fit. So I’ll typically just offer that right off the bat. I also make sure they have access to my service pages of highly sensitive people and the premarital counseling because I want to make sure that they really know me and they’re able to see the copy on my website of I definitely know how to work with that population, that couple that’s new and still really excited for their relationship. So in terms of marketing and that kind of thing, the things that stick out for me is making sure that I can speak their language if they’re wanting to have skills, if they’re wanting to have more educational, structured sessions, I’m your girl, I’m very Type A, I’m a recovering perfectionist. So being able to offer those things tends to be really helpful and what’s fun is that typically whichever partner reaches out to me is already a highly sensitive person, maybe a perfectionist, maybe they’re anxious, some combo of that and they’ll say, “Man, I wish I could have you for individual and premarital, but I know I really want premarital first.” So that’s typically how people find me. Then their partners are like, “Oh, okay, so if you’re similar to my partner then you’re going to really be able to help us out so that we can really nitpick and figure out the details to make sure our relationship is as great as it can be.” [LISA] Okay, great. Now what are some of the things that you would see in an HSP couple versus a non-HSP couple? [RACHEL] Sure, great question. So it just, from my experience, this is just my caseload alone is that there’s typically one partner that’s an HSP and one partner that is not. Nothing wrong with that. It’s still a compatible relationship. Don’t worry, I’m in one myself. My husband is not an HSP and that’s okay. So typically it’s working with a couple to work through their differences and their personalities and being able to have understanding of both sides rather than just catering to the HSP because otherwise that’s not really fair. So a lot of what I’ve experienced is that difference there. I have not yet had two HSPs show up as a couple. Those are definitely more rare because there’s only 20% in the world that has HSP trait so to find someone that’s also an HSP kind of hard. But the differences that I’ve noticed of couples that are not HSP whatsoever, and then the ones that might even have one partner is that transitions are easier for non-HSPs, that they’re usually a little bit more assertive and open to communication. They’re not as passive, they’re not as much as like a people pleaser. What else, their conflict from what I’ve noticed can be a little bit more intense and let’s see — [LISA] When you say their conflict can be more intense can you share more about that? [RACHEL] Sure. So the things that I’ve noticed is that those that are not HSPs, they’re more comfortable with expressing themselves. If they don’t have that people pleasing HSP peacemaker tendency, then they’ll be more comfortable expressing themselves. So if we’re going off of Gottman’s four horsemen of criticism, defensiveness, contempt, and stonewalling, that they’re more of the critical defensive contempt people. Then the HSP tend to have more of that defensive and stonewalling response. Does that make sense? [LISA] Yes, it does. Rachel, can you share more about what conflict looks like in an HSP couple? [RACHEL] Sure. In an HSP couple of, Lisa, my experience where there’s one HSP and one non-HSP is that the HSP will tend to have more defensiveness and stonewalling, so avoiding blame or shutting down, not really sure how to respond in the conflict. Then the non-HSP person may have more of a critical defensive or contempt response. They’re more comfortable asserting themselves and expressing how they’re feeling. That’s just been my personal experience. [LISA] Then how would you resolve that within the couple? How would they work together on resolving that? [RACHEL] Sure. The first step is definitely just educating the couple on the four horsemen of the apocalypse, the Gottman ways that we handle conflict, making sure that they’re aware of how that goes for them to identify in a non-judgmental way of what’s going on for them, of am I being defensive? Okay, I’m aware that I’m defensive. What’s going on for me right now? Where are my thoughts, my emotions, my behaviors, really being mindful of themselves. Then from there, making sure that their partner is aware of how they’re feeling in an assertive way of the I statements of I feel when blank happens and I need sentence formula there. So being able to break that down for them because a lot of HSPs have trouble asserting themselves. So make sure they feel comfortable there and make sure that the non-HSP is working on their active listening skills as well so that the HSP feels heard and comfortable to be assertive. [LISA] Okay, and how come, what do you, how come or how do you think or why do you think that HSPs have trouble asserting themselves? [RACHEL] My understanding with HSPs is that if they have any sort of HSP tendency, even if they’re lower on the spectrum there of HSP compared to really high off the charts is that we will, how do I explain this, that they will have a tendency to either be a perfectionist and like having a perfect way to communicate or they’ll have this people pleasing peacemaker moment of, oh, I don’t want to cause any issues, let me just smooth this over. Then they end up at times having the other person almost take advantage of them, not intentionally, but it’ll be easier for the non-HSP to get their way because the other person, the HSP is not expressing themselves. So it tends to be like either a peacemaking, a perfectionist thing, an anxious thing of I don’t want to upset things, I don’t want things to get loud, I don’t want things to be intense. So it being HSP sometimes is a sounds thing or it’s the almost empath moment of feeling those things, of feeling the tension that it throws them off and they want to avoid that. There can be a lot of different things that could be going on for them. [LISA] Wow, as I’m listening to all of the symptoms that you’re sharing, that’s really common for me and what I hear working with clients that are HSP too, it’s that it’s very loud in their head and needing to shut off or decrease the loudness and that looks like, okay, part of that is by like retreating going inward or some people think it’s isolating, but it’s actually a way of preserving themselves is taking that time to themselves to recharge, let go, decrease that loudness in their head. Do you find that too? [RACHEL] Oh, a hundred percent. I can speak on that personally that there will be moments that I’m, whether it’s an argument or just dealing with life, that there’s this moment of overstimulation that tends to be a big theme with HSPs, is this overstimulation that we’re like, wow, okay, that was way too much. I can’t handle this anymore. Not that they don’t want to deal with the concern at hand, but that they need to go and calm and breathe and just regulate their nervous system again so they have to physically retreat from that conversation. If the non-HSP is experiencing that, they may get frustrated, which is fair that they want to finish that conversation. However, they have to respect that HSP needs that moment to calm down because their nervous system is not allowing them to continue. [LISA] What do you tell, or how do you work with a non-HSP partner that doesn’t get it, that says, well that doesn’t make any sense. Like, I don’t get that. Or how do you work with someone that just doesn’t register with them, like, no, this is really a thing and this is what they really need to do to feel better. [RACHEL] Absolutely. I’ll usually start with just education for both of them. Even if the HSP knows themselves really well, I want to make sure, sure they’re on the same playing field of education from me, so making sure that they’re really aware. I’ll send links and videos and resources and articles to read for homework so that they’re better aware, but also to, depending on what’s going on, have self-disclosure from myself as an HSP so they can understand it’s not just their partner, but also to have their partner come up with examples and brainstorm of what’s happened not just in the relationship but in life and for how long it may have been happening for them, which is usually since childhood of moments and memories of this is what happened for me and the non HSP to use those active listening skills we cover to make sure that they feel heard and understood and validated of yes, I can understand that this was hard for you, not just a sympathy thing. [LISA] Yeah, I hear that a lot too. Like, oh, they’re just using the sympathy card or the victim card and then the non-HSP feels like a perpetrator or like they’re the bad guy. [RACHEL] Exactly. [LISA] How do you work with, when that comes into the session? [RACHEL] The non-HSP? [LISA] Yeah, just feeling, just not really feeling heard or accepted, like their needs are important too. [RACHEL] Sure. In terms of making sure the non-HSP doesn’t feel walked over by the HSP, that can get a little difficult at times but it’s also typically just my experience is that the HSP partner tends to have more empathy and more emotional understanding. So to make sure that they have a moment to practice those active listening skills with the non-HSP of, I can understand how this is hard for you when you see me retreating. I can understand that this is hard for you when, so on and so forth, so using more of those I statements and understanding and asking, clarifying questions of just really understanding and switching shoes, switching points of view so that each of them feels understood and heard because I feel like that to me is a foundation of a healthy relationship. If they both feel understood and heard, that’s going to go over really well and there’s going to be more trust compared to just coming in fighting all the time, that’s not going to be set up for success. [LISA] Is one thing to watch out for with the HSP in a relationship, is that, since they usually have more empathy and can see like the bigger picture at hand, that they have to not only take care of themselves, but take care of the other person or be the one, I don’t, maybe like more in the lead position, I don’t know if that’s even the correct term, but is navigating the direction of the relationship or is that like a danger? [RACHEL] That’s a good question. To make sure I’m understanding, you’re asking about the HSP partner being more of the emotional leader in the relationship? [LISA] Yes. [RACHEL] Okay, it really depends. I’ve had both partners, HSP and non-HSP reach out to me before. Typically I get a lot of, for me, data just from who reaches out to me first. So I’ve had honestly a pretty wonderful balance of both. I’ve had some really caring non-HSP partners reach out and be like, “Hey, I want a relationship to be wonderful. I understand that my partner’s in HSP can you help me understand how to work with them and how to have a better relationship.” That is, ugh, that just makes my whole day when I see them do that because they’re already practicing that empathy. But in terms of does the HSP lead the emotional part of the relationship at times, but I’ve also had the moments of an HSP that was really passive and not comfortable asserting their concerns. So I’ve had a bit of both. It really just depends on the couple and where they are and their relationship and their comfortability of sharing their concerns. [LISA] Yeah, for sure. How do you use humor in your sessions? [RACHEL] Oh, all the time. One, I love to laugh. I think it’s really helpful. It’s cathartic at times because there can be moments of, especially if it’s sex therapy or intimacy that the societal world is not very comfortable talking about those things. So I make sure that if it’s a proper time that we can make jokes about it, that we can giggle and laugh about certain things. But the other thing is just making sure that in that first intake session, I want to make sure people are as comfortable as humanly possible with me. So I’ll try and have a good spiel of sorts in the beginning of explaining who I am, how I got here, why I’m excited to work with them, and then making sure that they feel comfortable to know me. That’s also part of the free 15-minute consultation call that I do, is I make sure I have some humor in there because if they react with humor back, I know we’re a great fit and if not that’s okay. Maybe they’ll warm up to me. But typically there’s such a connection and humor and I feel like there’s such a way to be, at first maybe a little uncomfortable, but eventually vulnerable of using humor as like a segue into those deeper things. [LISA] I love that. That’s great. Humor is the form or the best medicine. What made you decide to add sex therapy to your practice? What were you noticing in your practice or? [RACHEL] Sure, so many, Lisa, so many things. I’ve always been really comfortable talking about sex and intimacy, that’s been a norm for me since I was a teen. I love talking about it. I found it fascinating. But then in terms of adding it as a therapeutic service is that I was getting a huge influx of highly sensitive, sheltered from conservative background, mostly female identifying clients coming in saying that I want to feel more confident in the bedroom, or I want to feel more confident in my body and my sexuality. How do I get there? How do I find a way to express those things when for so long I’ve been shied away and shunned from sharing those things. So for them to have a safe place to practice and talk with me first, and therefore, if when they feel comfortable for a romantic relationship that includes sex and intimacy, that they feel really confident and comfortable going into that rather than just, well I saw this one thing on YouTube and I guess that’s why I’m going to do now, that there’s a way to have the education and help them to feel informed and confident in themselves, in their mind and their body. [LISA] I love that, that connection in their mind and their body. Do you find that HSPs are more interested in the intimacy part? Like I would say like if there was a hundred percent, like it’s definitely on the higher scale, maybe 80% is so important to them, like that deep connection [RACHEL] A hundred percent. I’ve noticed that with just about every HSP I’ve worked with on my caseload in the past few years has been that they really, not necessarily physical, sure it’s wonderful, but at times physical intimacy can be almost too much for an HSP depending on what’s going on for them. So that emotional intimacy is what tends to really help them to feel more comfortable and confident in the relationship to therefore get to a physical place that they need to feel so comfortable with themselves and with their partner and expressing themselves to their partner to get to that really intimate place. Absolutely. [LISA] Then how do you work with a couple that the one partner is more like the emotional intimacy is more important than the physical intimacy and the other partner is the other way, vice versa and how do you work with couples that come in with that issue? [RACHEL] Oh, sure. Oh, I have a really good tool for that. So a few things, ugh, I have so many things I could share this all day. I love talking about this. There’s something that I believe the Gottman’s came up with, and you may have to tell me if I’m wrong. I think it’s like 1,5,9 or 1,5,10, something like that. I don’t like to end on an odd number. That throws me off. So I do 1, 5, 10 and I have the couples, that each partner figuring out on a scale of one to 10, how ready are they for physical intimacy, a 1 being, oh, I don’t know, like, thanks honey, love you. However, I’m not in the mood tonight. Can we snuggle instead? A 5 being like maybe if you do a little something, something we can figure out if I want to or not and then a 10 is like absolutely be there in 5. So checking in with them of where do you feel right now of a 1, 5, or a 10 in terms of physical intimacy? Maybe, I mean, I just thought about this, it can go the same way for emotional intimacy. If the person that’s wanting emotional intimacy wants this deep emotional conversation and then the other person’s like, eh, not feeling it, that they can use that same scale of, I’m not really in the mood for a deep emotional conversation right now, however, I’m okay discussing the highs and lows of our day, but they can check in that way. [LISA] I love that. Those are great ideas. I’m not familiar with that Gottman method technique, but it sure sounds like a good one. [RACHEL] It’s wonderful. [LISA] How do you work with a couple or what would you tell a couple that maybe one partner keeps giving the, on the low end of one or three and the other partners getting frustrated? [RACHEL] I think the biggest thing is first to have that awareness from both of them of like, where is this frustration coming from? If it’s truly the intimacy piece, great, let’s talk about it. Let’s be assertive about it. If it’s maybe another concern that’s bigger and is the easiest thing to pick on is intimacy, then we acknowledge that piece as well. So if there’s some of that frustration of one partner is at a one or a three all the time is to check in with them in a really kind way, not in a why aren’t you want to do anything that’s never going to get us anywhere. Don’t be critical, just to check in with your partner. Then from there, depending on what’s going on and how long it’s been going on for, is to consider one, couple’s therapy, always a fan of that, but to check in with each partner and to swap those ideas with each other of what’s going on for me? Is it because it’s stress? Is it because we have a new baby? Is it because we have major other stressors going on in life? Is it because there’s more of a medical concern? If it’s medical, let’s go to a doctor and see what’s going on. Do we need some checkup and going from there to breaking those things down of it being more of a we or a teamwork partnership of let’s figure this out together rather than putting yourself on two sides and battling it out. [LISA] Wow. So many great ideas and strategies to work through and to rule things out, to really get down to what is going on for that person in a non-judgmental way. [RACHEL] Absolutely. [LISA] How long do you usually work with couples, like three months, six months, less, more? [RACHEL] It really depends. Now if we are going strictly based on Georgia standards for premarital, I believe it’s 12, maybe it’s 12 hours, I’ll have to check for my sanity, but somewhere around 12 hours of premarital to get some sort of marriage license discount. I’d much rather them stay a bit longer than that because only having 12 hours, gosh, that doesn’t cover anything. They only cover so much. The first four is getting to know the couple and their concerns and their background. I’ve had couples I’ve worked with since I started as an intern a few years ago, which has been so fun to watch them learn and grow about, learn about themselves and grow and even start families. That has been so fun for me to watch and for us to check in with them as they’re starting a family. But then there’s some that come in in terms of more of that sex therapy piece. Maybe they only need five sessions, especially if it’s just finding ways to spice things up in the bedroom to find ways to express themselves in a confident way. It really depends on the concerns of what we’re working on. [LISA] I was thinking, well, 12 sessions, that’s great. To me that’s like a good chunk of time. [RACHEL] It just depends. It depends on how much they’re willing to put in the work and the effort and the homework. From there we can always space things out to once a month and that thing, but I always really want to make sure they learn those skills up front and then we space things out to check in because they may have learned a skill in session two and then session 14 they’re like, oh crap, what was that thing again? Oh yeah, can you reteach it to me? Just depends. [LISA] So couples get a discount in the state of Georgia if they do pre, I have never heard that before. [RACHEL] They do. I can’t remember what the discount is. It’s not crazy. Let’s be real. It’s not an amazing discount on the marriage license, but it doesn’t hurt in the grand scheme of things of how expensive weddings are and any sort of partnership ceremony, those can be really expensive really quickly. So why not save a couple bucks here and there if you can. [LISA] Great. What is premarital counseling providing that, say a couple didn’t do premarital counseling and just went right into marriage? What is that? What is that window of opportunity and that premarital I guess yeah, window that is providing before the couple commits themselves to a relationship? [RACHEL] Sure. This is speaking on how I offer things. So I’m sure that every premarital therapist does things differently. This is just how it works for me. I will cover communication, conflict resolution, finances, finding time together and a part that feels comfortable for them, family dynamics, intimacy gosh, religious, spiritual, if it’s applicable, how they handle stress and how they handle their partners stress, a huge amount of things that make a healthy relationship. I cover that first and then typically by that time we’ve covered enough ground that we can cover more of their concerns that are more personalized that we can break down a little bit further. Maybe it’s more of a family concern with boundaries or a mental health concern of where we need to support a partner in a different way. For me, that’s a gold standard in terms of premarital counseling. So I use a blend of preparing rich and sambis and Gottman techniques to make sure that they get every single possible technique I can think of to prepare them for a healthy marriage. [LISA] What can you say more about sambis? I haven’t heard of that technique [RACHEL] Sambis is an acronym and it’s save your marriage before it starts. I’m trying to think, I think it’s Doctors Les and Leslie Perot, I could be wrong, I believe those are who started that. With them it’s, all three of the methods I use include a relationship assessment. So keeping in mind, you’re not going to pass or fail this thing, it’s just to get a snapshot of where you are, but you’re able to better understand of those aspects of a healthy relationship where you stand where your strengths are, your areas of growth, and making sure that we can identify a baseline of things you want to work on and set some goals together. So they also have a workbook that I believe you can find on Amazon if you wanted to peek at that before you start premarital counseling, just to better understand what we might cover, that there’s some really good resources through sambis and then Preparing Rich has a workbook as well, got have exercises. Everything I do is very hands-on, interactive worksheets, homework, that thing, so like, whatever you learn with me actually sticks. [LISA] Oh wow, that sounds amazing. There’s so much there, so much rich material. [RACHEL] Woo, absolutely. [LISA] Wow. So Rachel, what would you like our listeners to take away from our conversation today? [RACHEL] The things that I’d really like for you guys to understand is just to, if anything, maybe some homework from the therapist to you, is to do a little research on your own of being an HSP. There’s a free HSP quiz, I’m trying to think, I can send you the link, Lisa, if you want to include it in the show notes of a free HSP quiz to figure out if you are an HSP. So definitely figuring out if you are, what does that look like for you, and doing some exploring on your own. If you’re not an HSP, maybe figuring out someone in your life that is so that you can better understand other people in your world because with 20% of the world being an HSP, you’re bound to run into somebody. [LISA] Yes, that’s so true. The website is Dr. Elaine Aron’s website, hsperson.com. She is the pioneer and coined the term HSP and she’s also got great resources on her website too, besides the free quiz. But that’s everyone, everyone who works with HSPs sends their clients to her website to take that quiz. So hspperson.com and that will also be in the show notes. [RACHEL] Great. [LISA] Do you have a free gift for my listeners? [RACHEL] I do. So I will send you the link for the show notes, but there is an entire page on my website labeled freebies, and you feel free to sign up for whichever one makes you happy. If you want all five of them, go for it. They cover 10 steps for healthy relationships, setting boundaries, how to help your team get to therapy, building your business. There’s a few different freebies out there, so whichever feels best for you in the season of life, go for it. [LISA] Great. Thank you so much for offering those freebies too. I appreciate that. [RACHEL] Of course. [LISA] Where can listeners get in touch with you? [RACHEL] Absolutely. You can find me on just about every social media platform you can think of. The company name is Sage Counseling and Wellness. The most interactive platforms for me are Instagram and LinkedIn. You can find me there. [LISA] Okay, great. Thank you. All that will be in the show notes as well too. So if you missed it, you’ll be able to find it in the show notes. Thank you so much for coming on the show today, Rachel. It’s been wonderful to have you here and enlighten us about premarital counseling geared towards a highly sensitive person. So if you’re an HSP and you’re struggling in a relationship or just want to know more about what that personality trait is, listen to the show, listen to some more episodes I have on HSPs, go to Rachel’s website. It’s been wonderful to have you here. [RACHEL] Wonderful. Thank you so much for having me, Lisa. I’ve had a blast. Thank you all my listeners for tuning in today. Please let me know what you thought of the episode. Send me an email to lisa@amiokpodcast.com. Remember to subscribe, rate and review wherever you get your podcast. To find out more about Highly Sensitive Persons, please go to my website at amiokpodcast.com and subscribe to my free eight-week email course to help you navigate your own sensitivities and to show you that it’s okay not to take on everyone else’s problems. This is Lisa Lewis reminding each and every one of you that you are okay. Until next time, be well. Thank you for listening today at Am I Ok? Podcast. If you are loving the show, please rate, review and subscribe to it on your favorite podcast platform. Also, if you’d like to learn how to manage situations as a highly sensitive person, discover your unique gift as a highly sensitive person, and learn how to be comfortable in your own skin, I offer a free eight-week email course called Highly Sensitive People. Just go to amiokpodcast.com to sign up. In addition, I love hearing from my listeners, drop me an email to let me know what is on your mind. You can reach me at lisa@amiokpodcast.com. This podcast is designed to provide accurate and authoritative information in regards to the subject matter covered. It is given with the understanding that neither the host, the publisher, or the guests are rendering legal, accounting, clinical, or any other professional information. If you want to professional, you should find one.